Ok, I’ve read through your comment and I’m a bit disappointed. You’re ignoring most of what I said, and your entire point is “but Poland, but Poland and but Poland”.
Your timeline conveniently starts in 1939 and ends in 1941, and you made no mention whatsoever of the Litvinov doctrine I brought up which explicitly was “seeking a collective security agreement with France and England against Nazis” for the entire 30s. You just reject the Spanish civil war as a nothingburger as if it weren’t the first antifascist war in Europe. You also don’t mention the Munich Agreements and somehow disregard the fact that France and Poland signed them with Hitler.
It’s not surprising Poland didn’t want Soviet troops in their country
Maybe it’s because Poland participated actively in the Munich agreements and got part of Czech land? By your own logic, Poland made an unforgivable deal with Hitler when invading Czechoslovakia. No blame there? History starts in 1939?
These countries weren’t free until FIVE DECADES LATER when the Soviet Union fell
Poland never belonged to the Soviet Union after the war, so your point is moot regarding Poland. As for Belarus and Ukraine, they respectively voted 83% and 71% IN FAVOR OF REMAINING IN THE SOVIET UNION IN THE 1991 REFERENDUM. What the hell are you talking about being free? Belarusian and Ukrainian people OVERWHELMINGLY DEMOCRATICALLY DECIDED TO BELONG IN THE SOVIET UNION. Please, tell me, how were Ukraine and Belarus not free?! Catalonia, for reference, recently had an independence referendum in which 50% of the population voted to leave Spain and the promoter of the referendum is a political refugee in Brussels. Please tell me in which fucking way Ukraine or Belarus weren’t free in the Soviet Union when they were two of the highest “yes” voters in the referendum.
You never addressed the public speeches by the leaders of France, USA and England admitting to what I’m saying. You never addressed the alternative to Eastern “Poland” (i.e. Belarus, Ukraine and Lithuanian territories) knowing that they would otherwise be invaded by Hitler, you never addressed the MILLION SOLDIERS that the Soviets offered and France rejected on exchange for a mutual defense agreement.
You simply ignored all of my comment, went on with the “but Motherboard-Ribbedcock” ignoring the history of the 10 previous years of consistent Soviet antifascist geopolitical position, and claim that the poor “Poles” (i.e. ethnic Ukrainians, Jews, Belarusians and Lithuanians) whose territories were returned to the Ukrainian, Belarusian and Lithuanian republics, were somehow oppressed Poles who somehow could have avoided Nazi genocide if it weren’t for Soviet intervention both in 1939 and in 1941.
I honestly expected a bit more of good faith from the exchange instead of doubling down on narrowing history to a skewed version of one treaty and ignoring the DEMOCRATIC WILL OF TENS OF MILLIONS OF VOTERS in the 1991 referendum by calling them “non-free” in the Soviet Union. So much for freedom.
The core reason the joint German-Soviet Union invasion of Poland is relevant is it shows the Soviets working with the Nazis. You portray them as being the first and primary countries willing to fight the Nazis, yet they were literally partnering with the Nazis for years while others had declared war on them. It wasn’t until Germany invaded the Soviet Union that the Soviets switched teams.
If that is a point we can’t agree on, then there isn’t much more going to happen here.
Edit: going to just post the timeline again:
23 Aug 1939 - Germany and Soviet Union sign a non-agression pact
1 Sept 1939 - Germany invades Poland
3 Sept 1939 - France and UK declare war on Germany (Soviets still have a non-aggression pact with Germany)
17 Sept 1939 - Soviet Union invades Poland (Soviets still have a non-aggression pact with Germany)
10 May 1940 - Germany invades France (Soviets still have a non-aggression pact with Germany)
22 Jun 1941 - Germany invades the Soviet Union and the non-agression pact between the Soviets and Germans is terminated
After the evidence I’ve shown you, calling it “invading Poland together with the Nazis” is honestly just lying. Ignoring that the territories returned were Ukrainian, Lithuanian and Belarusian for the overwhelming part is simply twisting history. It’s not “innocent poles getting oppressed by soviets”, it’s Ukrainians, Belarusians and Lithuanians being saved from Nazi invasion by Soviets. Again, answer this one question: what was the alternative to Soviet occupation of Eastern “Poland”. Please answer that.
You’re dishonest by refusing to entertaining the idea that the Soviets, as stated by Churchill, Chamberlain and Roosevelt, were not “collabbing with the Nazis”, but instead simply buying time to prepare for war. Evidence of the Soviet antifascist intervention on the opposite corner of the continent in the Spanish Civil War, the Litvinov doctrine, the collective security policy, pursued, the fact that the lands “invaded” weren’t even Polish for the most part, the mutual defense agreement with Czechoslovakia that made them want to start a collective war against Nazis which France refused, or asking yourself what was the alternative to Soviet occupation of the territories of Eastern Poland, none of this is enough.
And it’s not enough because you’re dishonest with your approach, because your starting point is “USSR bad, how can I justify this”, instead of “let’s look at the facts and reach a conclusion”. It doesn’t matter to you that Ukrainians and Belarusians overwhelmingly wanted to remain in the Soviet Union, you’ll still call them “unfree” because USSR bad. It doesn’t matter that the USSR saved Europe from fascism at the horrible cost of 25mn deaths, USSR bad. It doesn’t matter that literally every country in Europe had mutual nonaggression pacts with the Nazis at some point, history begins in 1939 and ends in 1941 because USSR bad. Munich Agreements don’t matter, Polish invasion of Czechoslovakia, Ukraine, Belarus and Lithuania doesnt matter, France rejecting to honor the Munich agreements doesnt matter, Spanish civil war doesn’t matter. Nothing matters, except for a 2-year interval in which the USSR was not at war with the Nazis.
Ok, I’ve read through your comment and I’m a bit disappointed. You’re ignoring most of what I said, and your entire point is “but Poland, but Poland and but Poland”.
Your timeline conveniently starts in 1939 and ends in 1941, and you made no mention whatsoever of the Litvinov doctrine I brought up which explicitly was “seeking a collective security agreement with France and England against Nazis” for the entire 30s. You just reject the Spanish civil war as a nothingburger as if it weren’t the first antifascist war in Europe. You also don’t mention the Munich Agreements and somehow disregard the fact that France and Poland signed them with Hitler.
Maybe it’s because Poland participated actively in the Munich agreements and got part of Czech land? By your own logic, Poland made an unforgivable deal with Hitler when invading Czechoslovakia. No blame there? History starts in 1939?
Poland never belonged to the Soviet Union after the war, so your point is moot regarding Poland. As for Belarus and Ukraine, they respectively voted 83% and 71% IN FAVOR OF REMAINING IN THE SOVIET UNION IN THE 1991 REFERENDUM. What the hell are you talking about being free? Belarusian and Ukrainian people OVERWHELMINGLY DEMOCRATICALLY DECIDED TO BELONG IN THE SOVIET UNION. Please, tell me, how were Ukraine and Belarus not free?! Catalonia, for reference, recently had an independence referendum in which 50% of the population voted to leave Spain and the promoter of the referendum is a political refugee in Brussels. Please tell me in which fucking way Ukraine or Belarus weren’t free in the Soviet Union when they were two of the highest “yes” voters in the referendum.
You never addressed the public speeches by the leaders of France, USA and England admitting to what I’m saying. You never addressed the alternative to Eastern “Poland” (i.e. Belarus, Ukraine and Lithuanian territories) knowing that they would otherwise be invaded by Hitler, you never addressed the MILLION SOLDIERS that the Soviets offered and France rejected on exchange for a mutual defense agreement.
You simply ignored all of my comment, went on with the “but Motherboard-Ribbedcock” ignoring the history of the 10 previous years of consistent Soviet antifascist geopolitical position, and claim that the poor “Poles” (i.e. ethnic Ukrainians, Jews, Belarusians and Lithuanians) whose territories were returned to the Ukrainian, Belarusian and Lithuanian republics, were somehow oppressed Poles who somehow could have avoided Nazi genocide if it weren’t for Soviet intervention both in 1939 and in 1941.
I honestly expected a bit more of good faith from the exchange instead of doubling down on narrowing history to a skewed version of one treaty and ignoring the DEMOCRATIC WILL OF TENS OF MILLIONS OF VOTERS in the 1991 referendum by calling them “non-free” in the Soviet Union. So much for freedom.
The core reason the joint German-Soviet Union invasion of Poland is relevant is it shows the Soviets working with the Nazis. You portray them as being the first and primary countries willing to fight the Nazis, yet they were literally partnering with the Nazis for years while others had declared war on them. It wasn’t until Germany invaded the Soviet Union that the Soviets switched teams.
If that is a point we can’t agree on, then there isn’t much more going to happen here.
Edit: going to just post the timeline again:
23 Aug 1939 - Germany and Soviet Union sign a non-agression pact
1 Sept 1939 - Germany invades Poland
3 Sept 1939 - France and UK declare war on Germany (Soviets still have a non-aggression pact with Germany)
17 Sept 1939 - Soviet Union invades Poland (Soviets still have a non-aggression pact with Germany)
10 May 1940 - Germany invades France (Soviets still have a non-aggression pact with Germany)
22 Jun 1941 - Germany invades the Soviet Union and the non-agression pact between the Soviets and Germans is terminated
After the evidence I’ve shown you, calling it “invading Poland together with the Nazis” is honestly just lying. Ignoring that the territories returned were Ukrainian, Lithuanian and Belarusian for the overwhelming part is simply twisting history. It’s not “innocent poles getting oppressed by soviets”, it’s Ukrainians, Belarusians and Lithuanians being saved from Nazi invasion by Soviets. Again, answer this one question: what was the alternative to Soviet occupation of Eastern “Poland”. Please answer that.
You’re dishonest by refusing to entertaining the idea that the Soviets, as stated by Churchill, Chamberlain and Roosevelt, were not “collabbing with the Nazis”, but instead simply buying time to prepare for war. Evidence of the Soviet antifascist intervention on the opposite corner of the continent in the Spanish Civil War, the Litvinov doctrine, the collective security policy, pursued, the fact that the lands “invaded” weren’t even Polish for the most part, the mutual defense agreement with Czechoslovakia that made them want to start a collective war against Nazis which France refused, or asking yourself what was the alternative to Soviet occupation of the territories of Eastern Poland, none of this is enough.
And it’s not enough because you’re dishonest with your approach, because your starting point is “USSR bad, how can I justify this”, instead of “let’s look at the facts and reach a conclusion”. It doesn’t matter to you that Ukrainians and Belarusians overwhelmingly wanted to remain in the Soviet Union, you’ll still call them “unfree” because USSR bad. It doesn’t matter that the USSR saved Europe from fascism at the horrible cost of 25mn deaths, USSR bad. It doesn’t matter that literally every country in Europe had mutual nonaggression pacts with the Nazis at some point, history begins in 1939 and ends in 1941 because USSR bad. Munich Agreements don’t matter, Polish invasion of Czechoslovakia, Ukraine, Belarus and Lithuania doesnt matter, France rejecting to honor the Munich agreements doesnt matter, Spanish civil war doesn’t matter. Nothing matters, except for a 2-year interval in which the USSR was not at war with the Nazis.
What a serious historical analysis. Good job.