I think a lot of people are neglecting to think of Biden’s lifetime record in public office. The United States is the nation on Earth with the greatest proportion of its own citizens imprisoned and we have Biden’s 1994 crime bill in large part to thank for that. Unfortunately it wasn’t terribly shocking when he went on to be more supportive of the Palestinian genocide than any other president in US history other than Trump.
They’re not neglecting it, they’re purposefully ignoring it. People will tag (correctly, mind you) Reagan, Nixon, and Dubya as the issue of modern America, but if you bring up the voting/writing record of the most recent Blue Guy, somehow its not their fault, people are allowed to change, people can learn better, etc. etc.
Got a comment removed yesterday for ‘hate speech’.
Lemmy .world is just Blue MAGA complaining about Reddit being Red MAGA.I saw that; it was particularly ghoulish because it was in a comment section full of actual, overt hate speech. But that hate speech was directed at America’s enemies, so guess who’s catching the ban.
There’s been so many blue maga types popping up since the news came out and it’s hella annoying. For an entire day on bluesky you couldn’t go anywhere without seeing some ex Facebook boomer blue maga type glazing genocide joe. God forbid you said anything against him and you got absolutely dog piled and scolded by people who were one wrong turn away from being Trumps strongest soldier.
Every liberal would be cheering and partying in the streets if Trump got stage 4 cancer.
Then they turn around and say “Wow you’re so uncivil for cheering for the guy who has aided in a genocide, helped make COVID a permanent issue, ignored kids in cages, and made Trump run again.”
Do they just not see all the issues with their favorite candidates or are they just unable to witness their own doublethink?
Remember when they got mad after Trump said “I could stand in the middle of Fifth Avenue and shoot somebody, and I wouldn’t lose any voters”? They said it was cult-like behavior by his followers.
But when Biden bombs children, or backs a genocide, it’s somehow not cult-like behavior to keep supporting him.
Murder is bad when its the other guys, our murder is just the way things are, nothing can be done to prevent it.
Blue MAGA is not a saying born lightly. These people are truly incapable of seeing their own party for the monters they are.
And then when you call them out, you’re calling being a useful idiot for having a braincell that wasn’t fed propaganda for a doupoly.
Every time someone says “Blue MAGA isn’t a thing” I just roll my eyes and recall every time I was right about the DNC failing to protect the democracy they claim to support, and got downvoted, banned, flamed, censored, etc.
Putting a finer point on it, they would be ecstatic if it were Sanders.
If Sanders keeled over, .world would be smugly saying “Aren’t we glad he didn’t have a chance at winning? He would have turned Murica into a socialist commie hellhole!”
Genocide is an antiseptic term for a very nasty thing.
I won’t excuse genocide. And apparently I’m the devil because of it.
If someone can excuse genocide that’s a personal failing they should see to.
Watch out, you’re going to upset the folks at lemmy.world
.world is upset anytime someone lightly criticizes their favorite politicans, we can ignore them.
And the german feddit
Feddit already permabanned me for calling the German government Nazis a few weeks ago so their precious eyes are protected from seeing this meme.
The ‘good german’ feddit.
Civility towards the powerful. Callous indifference to the downtrodden. The liberal way.
I think gloating about cancer is gross.
I also think using cancer as an excuse for hagiography of a man who knowingly sold weapons for an ongoing genocide is gross.
Libs stop thinking in electoralist terms challenge [back-breakingly toilsome]
Democrat politicians abandoned you decades ago and don’t have your interest in mind, please please PLEASE stop defending them/putting your hopes on them (and the electoral Kabuki theater in general) and do something about your situation yourselves. Organize, build community, help people in need, use your privilege where it matters.
It’s too late for elections, even more if that’s the one and only thing you’re willing to do politically. You might “win” a presidential term for a democrat president next time but the damage is already done and everything is rotting around you.
All this dumb bickering about “voting for the lesser evil” is incredibly frustrating for people from countries who endured dictatorships. So if anything, listen to them and act before it’s too late.
I got plenty of downvotes for not having sympathy for biden the other day
What if I don’t give a flying fuck about Biden? And I find both the people dancing about his nearing demise and the people clutching their pearls about that fucking stupid? There are almost certainly more important things of substance to place your energy into.
I’m so fucking tired.
Less than a year ago he was the Democratic nominee for president. The fact that he was obviously unfit for the job is an indictment of all the Democrats who lied about his health for years.
This is very much relevant to the future of the Democratic Party, not a “gosh who cares”
That’s not what the people who are gleeful about his impending death are downright cheering about. They’re gleeful because of their parasocial hatred of the man.
What you are talking about is an entirely different discussion. You are just shifting the goalposts.
I hate Biden because he had a major hand in letting Trump win, but I legitimately do not give a fuck that hes dying of cancer, pro or con. He is irrelevant now. And the people invested in this are experiencing their own derangement syndrome, only worse than most cases because Biden is no longer even president.
Well, he did enslave and/or murder millions of people so there is plenty of revenge to be had
The gleeful people are gleeful because the man is responsible for a genocide, and a painful death is the only measure of justice he’ll get. “Parasocial” is a term for obsessivelt following twitch streamers, not seeking any sort of accountability for the most powerful person in the world.
Plenty of people are also rightfully upset at further proof that Democratic leadership lied to them, and lied to them in a way that threw a layup election to Republicans.
Liberals: but what if we compromised, how about only some genocide? What if Israel only tortured half as many babies? What if Israel only illegally annexed half of the West Bank instead of their current plan to annex the entire thing? What if people were able to afford 50% of rent and 50% of all bills? What if we only cut Medicare and Medicaid by 50%?
What if Netanyahu put pronouns in bio?
Don’t be silly, liberals aren’t offering to spare half the Palestinians, there offering “killing all of them, but with a troubled expression on our face.”
Or kill half of them and then, as a compromise, only kill half of the ones who are left (repeat until total remaining Palestinians is less than 1)
The recursive two state solution
Removed by mod
I voted third party for Claudia de la Cruz. There were options on the ballots that were against genocide.
Democrats sued to keep her off the ballots in
systemstates it would have mattered. They knew the stakes and guessed voters would crawl back after the current administration.I personally voted Kamala (yes I know and it was a deeply painful decision). Looking back im not quite sure why, she never really had a chance and she certainly wasnt a good candidate. I suppose its because I genuinely don’t care about electoral politics. Workers liberation can only come from revolution.
She lost by one of the slimmest popular vote margins in history. But other than that, yeah, are never really had a chance
Are you unable to check wikipedia or are you lying on purpose?
This was literally the worst electoral map for the Democrats since 1988 when Republicans won Illinois and California.
Yeah but she almost won the entirely symbolic popular vote, she’s basically the next FDR!
Republicans love to pretend that where people live changes their value as a person.
Democrats love to pretend that the popular vote is what wins elections
Non sequitor. Not what I said and not a Republican.
Campaigns are about winning swing states, those are just the rules of the game. Kamala lost that game worse than any Democrat in nearly 40 years. Maybe the rules we have aren’t fair, and if they were different, she would’ve lost by a smaller margin. But then, both campaigns would’ve been run completely differently, the same candidates might not have even been the nominees, etc.
By the actual rules of the actual game, Kamala lost extremely badly.
Like it’s just republicans.
Talk to a centrist about raising the national minimum wage sometime, and it becomes clear quickly that they don’t care at all about raising the minimum wage once their state has done it.
Damn, really? Maybe the Democrats shouldn’t have put up a doddering, old, dementia-addled, genocide-enabling maniac for President, then, so that there wasn’t the whole candidate-switcheroo last second. Let me go blame myself for this.
deleted by creator
Your anger about a genocide enabler wrought a genocide enjoyer. Well played
Lol. “I’m ok with committing genocide, so long as its done solemnly and not gleefully.”
Though so far, Trump has been more willing to break from Israel than Biden ever was.
You’ve been playing genocide enabler since before the inception of your country. Maybe, if you’d have thought enabling genocide enablers leads to people who might enjoy genocide sooner, the whole moral dilemma might not have happened in the first place?
But no, it’s the people with a conscience to blame for this.
You played yourself.
Popular vote doesn’t determine who’s president; Harris got washed in the election.
It and it ALONE determines the successfulness of a campaign in converting hearts and minds.
The successfulness of a campaign is determined by who wins the election
so like getting the citizenship award on your 4th grade report card
Yeah, like how in 2016 Trump lost the popular vote and we never heard from him again
Ok. Not what we were talking about.
Since selectability doesn’t matter, I think everyone should just vote for their grandpa. Nearly all grandpas would be a good president. When the fascists win, it doesn’t matter. We voted for the best candidate. We can rest easy.
Have you met most American grandpa’s?
Nearly all grandpas would be a good president.
I’m sure you’d be happiest with the fox news brain pudding variety.
You forgot to strawmanify the second to last sentence - it should be “we each voted for a good candidate”.
My comment was removed by the mods… probably because I let my rage show. Though the mod log shows rule 2 instead of rule 1 :P
Here’s a longer and nicer version:
I’m a (US) liberal, and I don’t approve of any of the views described by kittenzrulz123. Lumping half the country into a single bucket is not going to give you a good overview of the myriad ideals we might have individually.
You have a choice. You can look at the political landscape at the moment of the election and choose one of four options:
- vote for the guy who will absolutely fuck over everyone he can for his own profit. We knew what he was back in 2016 and he isn’t going to change.
- vote for the lady who has a chance to win, is probably still crappy for some demographics, but is miles better than #1 and not likely to declare war on a random country because she’s hungry.
- vote for someone who has a 0% chance of winning, effectively throwing the vote to the rest of the population.
- abstain, also throwing the vote to the rest of the population.
At this time, our election system really only works for two parties. Any third-party vote is useless, if not counterproductive. If you can’t understand how that math works, let me know and I’ll break it down for you. I’d love to change that, but the process is by using our ability during primaries to put forward more liberal candidates that support election reforms, not by putting our heads in the sand and voting 3rd party hoping that we will make people notice… hint: they will not.
If you don’t like your choices when you go to the voting booth in November, the solution is to get involved in late November and make things better next time. Join a local democratic organization and become part of the solution. Complaining online about how your choices suck is something we can fix if we all jump in. If you’re not doing that, then you are abdicating your responsibility and allowing others to make the choice of who represents us instead. If you choose not to be part of the selection process, the very least you can do is vote for the ‘lesser evil’ and not make things worse.
Side note: the Primary election is the end of that selection process, not the start. Putting your values on the primary ballot is where you should spend your energy if you’re mad at the status quo.
I will admit that I’m angry that we didn’t get a Democratic primary and that Harris was ordained as Biden’s successor without any popular input. The DNC is to blame for that fuck-up. It’s irrefutable, though, that Harris would have been better for Palestine, the US economy, US healthcare, foreign relations, and dozens of other topics than trump is.
Would Claudia de la Cruz have been better? Sure. Her platform looks awesome. Did she have even a chance of winning? no.
It’s irrefutable, though, that Harris would have been better for Palestine
Source? Did she ever say anything that leads you to this conclusion? Because I never heard it and I was following the campaign pretty close
She did say she would break from Biden in one key area
spoiler
She’d have a Republican in her cabinet!
It’s irrefutable, though, that Harris would have been better for Palestine
Nope, this is just your wishful thinking, and also why the ‘lesser evil’ pitch isn’t compelling, because the people making it are unwilling to be honest about the evil that they’re supporting.
In this post: making a case against electoralism without realizing they’re making a case against electoralism…
Liberals occasionally come to the correct conclusion that the game is rigged. But then they still inevitably spend hours telling us how important it is to play it, and vote for their genocidal parties anyway.
It’s like banging your head against a brick wall inevitably causes you to see the truth, but at that point your brain is so addled that you are hallucinating the truth, despite your best tries at avoidance.
I feel we’re playing different games, or using different terms.
Help me understand.
Firstly. Let’s define words: I’m assuming/using my view of a US-centric Liberal vs Conservative.
Liberal: Democratic party, wants to make life better for the larger segment of the population.
Conservative: Republican party, wants to consolidate power and wealth in the hands of a few.
That’s my personal and biased broad-strokes view of the political landscape.
Conservatives have managed to gather enough popular support that people will vote against their best interest for either perceived economic gain or for ‘hurt the other people more.’
Stepping back even further, what is your end-goal? How do you respect the desires of millions of people without some sort of representation, and if you have such, how do you ensure that the representative aligns with the goals of their constituents?
Sadly, I’m offline for the day, but I’d be happy to continue this conversation.
Liberal: Democratic party, wants to make life better for the larger segment of the population.
Claims with decreasing credibility that they want to make life better for anyone. Never actually fucking tries to do it. Keeps finding just enough no votes to make sure it never happens. Blocks anyone from running in their party who actually wants to make anything better.
Heres how I define Liberal:
People who follow the Liberal ideology, this mostly involves “free market” capitalism as defined by classical liberal thinkers. Today its a violent imperialist ideology that supports the US status quo. Both parties in the US are Liberal as are the Libertarians, simply different flavors of liberal.
Now as for me, im a Anarcho-Syndicalist. If you want to learn more about my beliefs read these: One Big Union and Think it Over
I feel we’re playing different games, or using different terms.
You are correct, you are using different terms because in the US liberal is used to talk about the Democrats. Everyone else in the world, including here on Lemmy, uses liberal as in Liberalism. Both Democrats and Republicans are liberals, both defend the status quo and wants capitalism to continue.
Conservative: Republican party, wants to consolidate power and wealth in the hands of a few.
Both Republicans and Democrats wants that. They are both funded by US’s billionairies, they both attend to their interests and want this system to continue. I’m not gonna deny that the Democrats are to the left of the Republicans, but they are both still right wing parties in a two-party system.
In this post: not realizing that the ideal solution is not a single step away, but rather multiple steps – and they will not be simple to sell to a general populace.
I’ll admit I’m not familiar with the term. ‘Electorialism’ seems to be, according to Wikipedia, a ‘half-way step’ between Authoritarianism and Democracy.
As far as I know, we are still not quite in an Authoritarian state here in the US. We are more likely to be headed in the opposite way from Electorialism; where we are transitioning from what is a democratic process to one where oligarchs have consolidated enough power and influence that they can just say, ‘fuck it, we win.’ In that case, yes, I do want to make a case against Electorialism.
In Electorialism, the dominant party, presumably the authoritarian one, conducts elections that allow their opponents a stage and promises to be free and fair while still controlling the levers of power. What we have seen in the last 8 years is a party, republicans, that are throwing every possible strategy at the wall in the effort to undermine and discredit elections with the end result that if they win, the election will be seen as fair and, if they lose, the election will be seen as unfair.
All concepts of what are optimal democratic processes are going to be just that: concepts. We live in the real world. There are millions of people you have to convince to move to your desired method of representation. I think we agree on the end-goal, I just disagree on how to get there and think we can’t jump from a Trump presidency directly to a worker-owned utopia.
Help me out. What’s our next step?
Mine is to help elect people to local, state and federal offices that want to make life for everyone better.
In this post: not realizing that the ideal solution is not a single step away, but rather multiple steps – and they will not be simple to sell to a general populace.
Incrementalism has always been a lie. Democrats run on tiny improvements then work with republicans to block what they ran on.
As far as I know, we are still not quite in an Authoritarian state here in the US.
Just wanna drill into this; the United States has been an authoritarian state for as long as I’ve been alive. Deporting people without due process is not new. Supporting genocides is not new. The police state we live in is not new. The rule of law has been a joke for so long zoomers have internalized it. There is a reason why most of the governments we have overthrown have been democracies, and there is a reason the US has mostly replaced those democracies with dictatorships. We are the evil empire, and we have been for decades at this point.
Electoralism in this context means the idea that elections are the solutions to the political issues of our time, that the primary focus of energy from the left should be in winning elections so the elected officials can do as they were selected to do and solve societal ills.
Many Marxists and other leftists ideologies disagree and feel that the four options you’ve given show that electoralism is a trap for the political energy to change.
I understand your frustration as the entire thread is strawmanning liberal positions.
Essentially, capitalism coopts movements. Liberalism is an ideology which exists and has values, but since this is the primary vehicle for left leaning politics on a national level, companies spend a lot of lobbying effort stuffing liberalism with stuff that helps them.
Conservative have has gone through similar changes, stuffing a fiscal conservative viewpoint with bullshit culture war stuff as the primary vehicle for right wing politics.
When people critique electoralism, they see liberals as unable to organize because the movement has been cooped by big money and liberals refuse to admit they aren’t in control of their own party.
When you campaign for liberal values, critics see you as providing ethical cover for the promises to lobbyists that had already been made behind your back which secured their campaign donations enabling them to run in the first place.
Things like funding Israel.
You can discuss being anti Israel, you can rally behind someone like John Fetterman or Krysten Sinema who promises to be a progressive, but the thing about electoralism is you can just lie and turn heel.
Help me out. What’s our next step?
This is where I agree with you.
There are steps inside electoralism and steps outside.
If you’re saying “just vote Democrat and wait 4 years for things to get better” I agree that’s naive and there’s action we can take outside of electoralism.
If they’re “stay home and don’t vote” I agree with you that’s nauve and we can take action inside of electoralism too. It’s just gonna be inherently pretty ineffectual.
Currently, when candidates we elect take big money and vote against our interests we can’t do anything for 4 years about it. But because we have our “I voted” sticker it acts as a balm to the consciousness and deluded is into believing our fellow countrymen actually agree with the direction it takes.
All concepts of what are optimal democratic processes are going to be just that: concepts. We live in the real world. There are millions of people you have to convince to move to your desired method of representation. I think we agree on the end-goal, I just disagree on how to get there and think we can’t jump from a Trump presidency directly to a worker-owned utopia.
Again, this is where I fully agree with you.
Protesting Kamala from my university campus seems like a better alternative to protesting Trump from El Salvador, even if the genocide is happening in both cases.
I haven’t heard a compelling argument staying home and not voting is better.
I’m now mobile, so my formatting will suffer.
Capitalism = bad. I’m fully behind that, and see it as the root of the problem. What I don’t see is a path forward that doesn’t involve incremental progress, even if not all demographics are served. At least not without violence that will be disrupt even more.
I think this is where we disagree, but I might still be missing something.
You (assorted folks responding to me) want an epoch change where we rise up and take back the power we have. We have it right now, but the price to pay to enforce that is too high for me.
I want a progression where we work towards owning that power. We had it partially when unions were still strong, but it was undermined. In my mind, the solution is education, but I have no power to enact that directly. My ability to influence is limited to my local org and voting.
A green party, socialist party, etc, will never win an election in our current environment. Votes there are literally useless, if not spoiling a candidate that has at least some if your views. The system is rigged, sure, but you can’t flip this table and walk away.
Can we separate this discussion into talking about politics and elections and eliminate Israel/Palestine? I’m a-religious, pro Palestine, pro humanitarian, but having that angle seems to quickly degenerate every conversation into ‘both sides are genocide’ and avoid the’how do we move forward’ question. I think these can be separated, but maybe that is also a place we disagree.
No, you can’t “eliminate palestine”
What I don’t see is a path forward that doesn’t involve incremental progress, even if not all demographics are served. At least not without violence that will be disrupt even more.
But do you actually see a path forward that does involve incremental progress?
I’ve watched politics incrementally change from Clinton’s Third Way to Bush’s War on Terror to McCain/Palin and the Tea Party to Trump.
I’ve watched Fox news incrementally change, I’ve watched print media incrementally be bought up.
I’m hearing about abortion getting banned, hate crimes going up, school shootings, people being abducted and sent to death camps in El Salvador.
When does this incremental change move us forward instead of backwards?
You (assorted folks responding to me) want an epoch change where we rise up and take back the power we have. We have it right now, but the price to pay to enforce that is too high for me.
I’m not the assorted folks responding. What I personally want is a reform. I like the idea of democracy. I do not think we have it.
I think the system we currently have is rigged and not capable of producing the incremental change you ask of it.
Where I agree with everyone else, is that if we have to resort to revolution just to get the slightest pedestrian changes to the electoral system to let incremental change takeover (repeal citizens united, disband both parties, disallow “parties” to subvert primaries, remove big money, etc)… why set it back up more or less the same?
When those other leftists accept revolution as inevitable they can dream bigger beyond the current system.
The more liberalism is cooped by capitalists to resist the reforms liberalism itself demands, the less liberalism as a coherent movement can thrive.
This leaves actual liberals like you and me disenfranchised and without a party. A further leftist might describe that as defeatist.
I’m confused, when you talk about voting “Democrat,” do you mean, for the Democratic-Republicans? I was thinking of voting Federalist, personally.
Since our system makes it impossible to change from the two currently existing parties, it follows that the two parties we have now must be the ones we started with.
But regardless, this is typical shortsighted liberal (i.e. capitalist) analysis that only looks at the immediate outcome and only at electoral politics. If a significant portion of the electorate can make a credible threat to sit out if their demands are not met, then they can leverage that threat to get what they want. The right is much more willing to do this because they put their values above reason, and it works - many Republican candidates understand that if they look soft on things like abortion or guns, a sizable portion of their base will defect, even if it means voting for a crank and throwing the election. Democratic voters are much more committed to being “reasonable” and so refuse to set any red lines anywhere, and the results are clear: the right successfully shifts the Republicans to be more extreme, the Democrats follow, and the left falls in line and accepts it. We are desperately overdue to start learning from their successful tactics and from our own failures, setting down red lines, and thinking beyond the current cycle. And we can debate where exactly red lines should be set, but if genocide doesn’t deserve one, nothing does.
Moreover, the facts of physical reality, the material conditions, and the myriad of crises we’re facing demand radical changes beyond what we are told are possible in the existing system. But those things are physical, natural, immutable facts, while our political system is, on a fundamental level, manmade. We do not have to abide by its rules and what it tells us is and isn’t possible - but we do have to do that regarding the laws of nature, which tell us about things like climate change. Monarchy had no mechanism built into the system to transform into liberal democracy, and yet, here we are. That’s because there are fundamental mechanisms for change that exist within every political system, whether the system wants them to or not, and I don’t just mean revolutions, but demonstrations, strikes, etc. And so, the party I voted for, PSL, participates in electoral politics for the express purpose of building organization beyond electoral politics. Helping a candidate who I see as fundamentally unacceptable win an election is less important that helping to promote that sort of organizing.
I’m no longer at my computer where typing is easy. I thank all of you for responding in good faith, and I’ll be reading the various links. Thanks for engaging with me.
It’s irrefutable, though, that Harris would have been better for Palestine
Biden, a Democrat, started the genocide, KKKamala said that she vows unwavering commitment to Israel’s existence and have multiple times stated support for Israel. Genocide is genocide, there’s no making it better mf. Both Democrats and Republicans are half the face of the same side of a coin, they both want the genocide of the Palestinians, because that’s what the USian bourgeoisie wants. You’re literally doing the 50% genocide meme.
Also, here’s Joe Biden’s long history of pro-Israel statements.
foreign relations
KKKamala said that she would make sure the US military is the most lethal force in the world.
Other than that, you just showed how electoralism under capitalism literally doesn’t work, but somehow think you can reform the system? Just how? Y’all spent decades fighting for the bare-minimum of woman’s rights and public health, that being the right of abortion, all to have it taken away in the blink of an eye and you genuinely think the system can work?
Its wild how liberals are memory-holing Copmala’s entire history.
Okay. My method doesn’t work. We can’t reform the system from within.
What does?
What’s your perfect solution? How do we get there?
I’m honestly curious. I’m pissed at the status quo, and don’t know how to make things better with my limited personal power.
Full scale invasion. Liberating the world requires destroying the global oppressor.
Revolution is the only solution. Even if USians managed to elect a really good reformist, the dominant class will not take lightly to that. We take the path of revolution not because we want it, but because it’s the path the bourgeoisie forces us to take, they will simply not allow you to meddle too much with their system without consequences, and will fight to keep it in place, just like the monarchies of the past fought these same bourgeoisie that violently took the power away from them to establish themselves as the new status quo.
Also, the US is a constant threat to leftists abroad, just need to look at Chile on 09/11/1971, when democratically elected socialist Salvador Allende was killed in a US-backed military coup that installed neoliberal dictator Pinochet into power, which is further proof of the problems of electoralism, but on an international scale.
You genuinely should read marxist theory. Comrade Cowbee have a great starting guide.
The answers to this comment reveal why I disagreed with the rest of these folks when I originally responded to you.
As a liberal, I don’t think voting once every 4 years and hoping things get better is a great strategy.
But reading a bunch of theory until I accept Russia is amazing and wait for them to invade me doesn’t feel particularly better.
It’s not supposed to feel good for the burgers. Its supposed to crush the burgers once and for all.
It’s tragically hilarious how many people think Gaza would be worse-off if Harris won. Like, goddamn, are they not watching the news? Trump’s basically at a quarter-chub thinking about putting another one of his shitty towers there once everything is said and done. Just goes to show how many of these virtue-signalers never gave a damn in the first place. They just wanted to look good for their internet points.
Gaza was literally just as bad under Biden, and Harris was emphatic about continuing his policy.
But because you have some psychosexual impression that Trump is “at a quarter-chub” (which you apparently got from “watching the news”, which fucking channel was this from), you’ve decided he’s worse
It’s hilariously hypocritical that you accuse others of “virtue signalling” (great to see democrats wholly embracing MAGA rhetoric), because you don’t have any actual qualitative or quantitative argument for Harris being better, just a vague vibe about her being more virtuous.
The only thing that would be different under Harris is that the US would still be bombing Yemen on Israel’s behalf
Trump is literally the worst-case scenario, and the entire world is putting up with his bullshit now. I don’t know what reality you’re living in.
Trump is literally the worst-case scenario
Only for liberals like you, who are perfectly happy to support genocide so long as it’s done with decorum.
The only thing that would be different under Harris is that the US would still be bombing Yemen on Israel’s behalf
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On the other hand, we now have one party that’s at least pretending to not like genocide, as opposed to zero major parties like last year.
They just wanted to look good for their internet points.
A lot of the people who didn’t vote for Kamala over Palestine have gone to protests, and many of those people have been arrested or worse. That’s not even getting to the Palestinian Americans who have had family members killed by U.S. bombs.
Your vile ass is saying it’s all internet shit to them while you vote for the people dropping those bombs.
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If this were posted on reddit, I feel like you would’ve got more upvotes. I always wondered what type of people were here before the reddit protests. They do say Russia sows discord on both the left and the right, but I don’t think this is their doing. There is no listening going on and people are unempathically hyperfocused on just their topic of choosing. I’m checking out some subreddits…
You leftist rabble-rousers with your lofty ideals of “not doing a genocide” don’t know anything about getting elected and getting things done
*loses 2 elections to the most disliked president in history*
DAMN YOU PUTIN!
You gotta understand, we only had three months to distance ourselves from Biden but also didn’t want to. It was the only way to make sure the donors were happy. You understand right? Stop blaming us for taking no positions and blame yourself for demanding us to take a position to secure your vote. It was a completely unreasonable ask and you knew it!
What next, you’ll demand to be able to afford rent AND food on the average wage? Pick one and be grateful
One? Look at Rockefeller over here.
No one said it was fine that Harris supported Israel.
What we all said was there are only two candidates who could win the election, and they both support the genocide. We condemned the one-sided criticism, not the facts.
If you never said that harris shouldn’t be supporting genocide, you never encountered it.
I saw a ton of people that tried to say Kamala would be better without any actual evidence of that.
Do you think she would’ve upgraded the 5-ton bombs to 10-ton bombs, and provided bulldozers to turn the West Bank into a billionaire resort too?
According to recent reports stating that Biden never applied any pressure to israel, and considering she never made herself different than him on israel, I have no doubt if they asked she would have.
Since we are in a post election situation, by constantly scape goating voters, you are doing one sided criticism.
Trump helps genocide and he is a bad guy, Biden and Harris help genocide but the voters should have accepted it essentially.
If we refuse to hold the dems accountable for their actions which directly led to Trump winning, they will plot the same course for the next election.
If we refuse to hold the dems accountable for their actions which directly led to Trump winning, they will plot the same course for the next election.
Yes, that’s the idea. No centrist wants to stop the genocide. It’s not like it’s something centrists do want to stop, like raising the minimum wage or universal healthcare or cannabis legalization or anything they run on.
Am I? More people voted against Trump than for him. If the third-party voters accepted that they can’t change the rigged system by voting third-party, Harris would’ve won.
The were too small a demographic to listen to, but they were so influential that they’re responsible for trump.
Sounds like they’re kingmakers and maybe they should have been treated accordingly. But that will require belatedly abandoning support for genocide, so centrists never will.
If the dems had catered to voters instead of kneeling in front of a foreign apartheid state and its genocide, Harris would have won.
Politicians can choose what they represent and the platform they put forward. I don’t want to have to vote for genocide so democracy can live again, I want the dems to drop their pro-genocide stance. Blaming voters is the opposite of asking for change.
Be glad those third parties exist. Those people would have spite voted for Trump instead, not for Harris.
At least they’d be forced to own their complicity instead of hiding behind a pointless action.
At the moment of voting there was only one choice which had been complicit in genocide up to that point.
Are you for real?
Trump repealed restrictions on Israeli settlements on Palestinian territory. Netanyahu was so grateful, he named a settlement after him in occupied Golan Heights. He also said Israel needs to “finish the job” and stop recording their atrocities because they’re “losing the PR war.”
Actually a huge number of people said it was fine that Harris supported Israel, as well as a huge number who engaged in heavy denialism about Harris’ support of genocide.
What we all said was there are only two candidates who could win the election
Yeah, Joe Biden and Donald Trump, I remember.
A Democrat or a Republican. Welcome to the United States. Select one of the two or one will be selected for you.
*Select one and one will be selected for you anyway
It’s that type of flawless, disengaging thought that brought you the Trump administration. Twice. Maybe try something different to get the 90M eligible voters to show up?
Democrats moved too far to the right.
The right didn’t buy it but the left did. Progressives and leftists tried to warn you but the party did what it wanted anyway, secure in the knowledge that they had plenty of people who will blame the voters if that’s what it takes to never listen to them.
EDIT: typo
Shocking idea but I do not give a shit about the Democrats, maybe they should be trying to appeal to voters rather than the other way around? Oh wait, they cant because as the saying goes your vote doesn’t matter unless you buy it in advance.
Nor do I. I did give a shit about preventing the election of a fascist dictator. Apparently that was not as important to you.
“It’s the voters vault we ran a terrible right wing candidate.”
Nooooo guys!!! Biden genocide was better than Trump genocide! 😡😡 You don’t understand, he said he was trying not bomb children!!! 😢
I know I’ll get downvoted for this, and to be clear, all of our governments supporting this genocide are absolute bullshit and capitalism is bullshit.
However, at least you had one choice that wasn’t actively also trying to destroy your own country and take away the rights of people in your own country to such an extent that they now can’t even worry about what’s happening elsewhere because they’re too worried trying to find healthcare and not get deported, killed, or permanently detained.
If you were going to not vote in order to take down the system, then show up and take down the god damn fucking system.
you had one choice that wasn’t actively also trying to destroy your own country
If both parties are doing a genocide right now, how can you argue this is a bad thing?
From a global perspective, the U.S. empire can’t end soon enough. It’ll even be good for the U.S. if we manage to take all that money reserved for worldwide slaughter and build houses and pay for education with it. Unfortunately, none of that appears likely to happen unless the empire crashes and burns first. Whether we can make something better out of that is another question.
However, at least you had one choice that wasn’t actively also trying to destroy your own country
When a normal, moral person discover that a country is hellbent on genocide, they would think that destroying that country is a good thing.
take away the rights of people in your own country
The genocide in the colonies must continue for the benefit of the people in the capital.
they now can’t even worry about what’s happening elsewhere
So you were worrying before? Certainly didn’t accomplish anything.
Thank you, no need for me to add anything
Let me give you this dilemma, given the imperial nature of the US and that you need an overhaul of the system, isn’t trump the perfect candidate to vote to do just that?
“I’ll get downvoted for this but…” Says the most valid take everNevermind
The valid take of “yes the people I support are committing the worst acts imaginable to mankind, but I stand to personally benefit, so it’s actually good to support them.”
You made me think I supported someone who was against Palestine, he literally does not say that, you only infer that just because he isn’t fully anti-democrat and is using the ‘lesser evil’ arguementOh the thinks Palestine/Hamas will destroy Israel nevermind
Where the fuck did I say Palestine would destroy Israel?
I am 100% pro-Palestine, I just genuinely do not understand how voting someone in who has exponentially sped up the genocide and sped up the suffering of brown, queer people and women, in his own country is somehow the more moral choice in all of this. It doesn’t make any fucking sense to me.
I mean it is though, at least from a numbers perspective.
Neither should happen but since i don’t get that choice, I choose the option that saves millions of lives.
Not to mention the US is now party to the Ukraine genocide too.
not to mention the real threat to foreign born citizens and LGBTQ people in the United States itself.
So yes Biden is better even if we are dealing with shades of black
This is also false. Biden drastically upped the military aid to Israel after Trump left office.
The US democrats are a vicious, genocidal party.
We need a party that is actually anti-oppression and doesn’t just pay it lip service.
he isn’t even lip service, never once has he acknowldged there being a genocide in Gaza
Its also one we have a better chance to influence. What serious organization for progressives is there?
Its also one we have a better chance to influence.
What fucking garbage. democrats only listen to republicans and netanyahu.
It’s okay, we got it. You supported genocide and now you are trying to justify it so you can sleep at night.
The only true unserious people here are those who defend a genocidal monster even when the monster literally confessed to be one.
Have a shower.
You had a zero percent chance of influencing the Democrats, as evidenced by over a year of complete failure to do so. So no, you didn’t have a better chance to influence them
What serious organization for progressives is there?
If you don’t have an answer for this you are just trolling and not serious about any matter.
Democrats are retaliating against David Hogg as a direct result of his serious organization to primary shitlibs.
You can’t answer it either, lol, that’s why you’ve been reduced to pretending you can influence the Dems when you’ve conclusively demonstrated that you can’t.
But that makes sense, given that you admitted to being a troll.
You can’t answer it either, lol, that’s why you’ve been reduced to pretending you can influence the Dems when you’ve conclusively demonstrated that you can’t.
I did answer it and you are making fun of my answer right there. Fair enough, but I have asked you what your ideas are, and all you can say is to twiddle your thumbs.
Voting dem and making it more progressive is an actionable item. What is your alternative that is so much better?
Its also one we have a better chance to influence.
Lol. LMAO, even. We can’t get them to lift a finger against fascism, dude
Lol. LMAO, even. We can’t get them to lift a finger against fascism, dude
what chances do we have with Trump then?
So far Trump has proven easier to influence against Israel just because of how petty he is.
I mean it is though, at least from a numbers perspective.
And which numbers are those? Oh, you meant vibes.
Okay, but then if we point our finger at your face and call you a genocide supporter, you shut up and take it right?! Right?
no i wouldn’t because i don’t support it and your inability to see shades of gray will paint darker and darker paths
When people start talking about “shades of gray” with regards to genocide, they 100% support genocide
and your abstinence vote 200% supports genocide, you not only gave your vote away to trump, but you actively sabotaged the dems chances
You have no idea how I voted, or if I live in a swing state, or if I’m even eligible to vote, so shut your presumptuous mouth. More to the point, only a BlueMaga lunatic could try to claim that not voting for genocide supports genocide twice as much as voting for genocide. Like, you don’t actually believe in anything, not even the meaning of words; you’ll just say whatever you can to confuse and antagonize.
You have no idea how I voted, or if I live in a swing state, or if I’m even eligible to vote, so shut your presumptuous mouth.
centrists don’t care how you vote. If you’re to their left on the only issue any of them care about, everything is your fault.
I refuse to believe these people are real and in good faith. One of the two thing must be wrong. You can not be this stupid.
‘I don’t support it but I directly cast my vote for the people responsible’.
Ahahah sure brother sure. Keep saying this to yourself.
You did not have to preface it with pretending to save anyone. You simply care only about yourself and you do not care about anyone else.
As an immigrant, I’ll say this as politely as I can: fuck you. I really wish skidmarks like you would stop trying to risk my life to gain brownie points with their tankie friends.
Wtf are you so pissed about? Did Castro free your slaves? Did Mao break up your egg monopoly? Did Stalin kill your ss grandfather?
❌ Please try again
What the actual fuck ? Unhinged
Removed by mod
Stop pretending to allow a genocide because you are trying to save other people. When this doesn’t cross your red line you have no empathy.
Do you know what empathy is?
Its what liberals dont have
Except now Trump is starting to play hardball with Netanyahu, and is distinctly unhappy with the the U.S. taking so much flak while being treated as a money fountain.
There is a much more real world where Trump gets sick of Bibi and pulls his support than Harris pulling support from Israel. A fully isolationist U.S. is better for Palestine.
Imagine portraying trump as anything but dementiaed. You know he posts a about razing all of gaza to the ground to build a resort, right?
this is just right wing trolling at this point
