am I the only one who doesn’t give a fuck about cheating? just be careful with std, test regularly, and have fun.
Can you imagine if your partner said you’re only allowed to eat her cooking, anything else is cheating and you are a horrible person if a coworker offered a snack and you accepted?
that’s what I practice and am open about it. I hate those who say they are poly as an excuse after being caught cheating. Not because of the cheating itself, but because they lied to get with someone they knew won’t want that. Therefore the cheated partner had no informed consent. And I’m not sure this is a mainstream view. but I consider informed consent as consent, and therefore no informed consent is rape.
Someone who lies about who they are to have sex is a rapist, just using conman tricks instead of drugs or force. And should be seen by society as such.
I may misunderstood what you mean, but from what I got I disagree.
A person who cheates on their partner may have done psychological harm because of their lie, but no rape happened, since both people engaging in the sexual activity consented to it. Although the partner likely is against it, they are not a party to this activity and therefore their consent or non consent does not matter, at least as it depends on if this action can be considered rape.
Imagine you have a relationship where one of the rules each person is expected to follow is “Do not have sex with other people.” You both agreed to it. Then you find out the other person broke it. Trust is gone.
This would be different than someone saying “Hey, I know we agreed to this rule, but can we revisit that?” and having a grownup discussion about ENM alternatives, where someone has the opportunity to say that is a dealbreaker for them or declare boundaries that make this OK with them.
Nonmonogamy is cool if everyone is aware and onboard. Fuck cheaters. If you’re going to claim monogamy without actually being monogamous, don’t enter into a relationship on those terms and save everyone the grief/waste of time/psychological damage.
i find such rule to be inherently controlling and coercive. and used to punish abused and neglected partners who find affection elsewhere but can’t leave their relationship due to coersion or fear of homelessness.
Cheating like that should be like “we agreed were both in a diet, but I had a donut that someone brought to the office”, not “you are inherently a horrible human being who deserves to be shamed and hated for seeking human connection”.
If two parties agreed to it under no sense of duress then anyone who betrayed the mutual trust required is making a selfish choice.
If your feelings toward the agreement change you need to have a discussion with the other person.
You can say they’re antiquated for agreeing to it, you can even say that it’s an unrealistic expectation but if it’s consensually agreed to it’s about trust in your partner’s word
If two parties agreed to it under no sense of duress
As long as monogamy is considered the default and something most people wouldn’t ever consider getting away from, it’s impossible to enter a monogamous relationship absent coercion, because the coercion is societal.
Just like there’s no such thing as voluntary employment under a capitalist system, there’s no such thing as voluntary monogamy in a world dominated by Western, Bronze-age sexual politics.
I would never agree to those terms, so they don’t apply to me.
the problem is that society, states, and religion pushes those standards as if they are the only correct form of relationships. they are arbitrary rules based on ancient forms of control, where women were seen as free household labor and baby factories.
I empathize. Women are absolutely coerced into a role by modern society a habit we are sadly falling back into and that is horrible.
However, to say that no two people wish for a monogamous relationship and that trust ultimately doesn’t matter is a step too far for me. But I understand why someone would feel that way.
I too have seen people trapped in a loveless marriage.
still agree with that. it’s a stupid standard that hurts and shackles people rather than help them
so many loving relationships are torn because an affair, even an emotional one, even if one partner does noting but just develops feelings (100% out of their control), or worse, jealousy. all because monogamy is the standard.
ask elder people who were married through most of their lives and they all have stories of those hardships and how it hurt them.
wouldn’t it be nicer and simpler of cheating was viewed with the same severity as cheating in a diet? rather than being a devastating blow to a relationship and might even lead to severe social punishment?
We are animals we need connections and we aren’t always in control regarding what connections form.
So am I correct in saying under your framework monogamy can never be chosen freely? Or would it be at more accurate to say that if it was chosen it’ll be chosen via action and not agreement?
Humans can’t control what they feel, you cannot agree to not develop feelings or interests on other people, doing so is inherently dishonest, not to your partner but to yourself. and expecting it from your partner is equally unfair.
yes, two people can agree that they expect all their romantic and sexual needs to come from within the couple and promise not to engage romantically or sexually with other people. But if it wasn’t because it is the social norm, that would seem a strange and ridiculous expectation.
Then don’t enter into relationships where that’s a rule, or negotiate alternatives 🤷♂️
I’m not going to say there aren’t circumstances where cheating is understandable, but it’s still a bad thing to do, even in the scenario you describe. Taking the abused and neglected cheating partner’s perspective - what happens when your partner finds out? What happens when someone else finds out and uses this information to blackmail you? Are you really going to be better off than you would’ve been making and executing an escape plan instead?
Cheating almost always outs. Everyone thinks they’re going to be the exception, but by definition few are. If you’re unhappy in your relationship, either get all people in the relationship onboard to start addressing that, or leave. If leaving is going to create problems, prepare in advance to address those problems. IMO you’ll be better off for it v. cheating.
you’ve never been in an abusive relationship and it shows. Ideally no one should ever be in one.
I hope it’s ok if I copy pase a reply I did to someone else, but I’m getting a lot of replies and there’s no point in writing the same thing twice:
I would never agree to those terms, so they don’t apply to me.
the problem is that society, states, and religion pushes those standards as if they are the only correct form of relationships. they are arbitrary rules based on ancient forms of control, where women were seen as free household labor and baby factories.
Don’t mind the copy-paste at all, and I happen to (more or less) agree with the statement as is.
My counterpoint is despite these pressures, it is something you do not have to accept for yourself, but not at the expense of violating the trust of someone you promised you’d be monogamous with. You can be poly, you can swing, you can have mistresses/whatever the masculine equivalent word is, whatever. But you have to be honest in your romantic/sexual dealings, so people can make choices that are appropriate for them with a full understanding. And if you are in a relationship where you can’t be honest, then IMO you need to get out. Nothing good will come from staying, and much worse can come from cheating.
I will admit, however, that I have not been in a abusive relationship in the strictest sense of the term (what’s a little financial abuse and gaslighting between friends - I’d put an emoji here but can’t find one bitter enough. I understand what you mean though), and that does inform/limit my perspective.
this isn’t a debate, just a conversation. I have no expectation for anyone to change their minds. if I have any goal, is that everyone should question the rules and norms we inherited from our societies. even if you agree with them, it’s important to question.
and monogamy in particular, is one of those norms most people just passively accept without thinking about it. If you agree with it, go ahead, but it’s important to take a moment and question it.
Damn, had no idea how unpopular that opinion was. I expect it to be unpopular, just not universally so. still, I will die in this hill. Suggest people to check out “relationship anarchy”. And I will be open about it, so absolutely no one who wants monogamous relationship ends up with me, I wouldn’t want to hurt anyone.
If you’re open about it ahead of time, that’s not cheating. Cheating is when you go behind your partner’s back with someone outside of the established relationship.
Relationships are built on trust and establishing boundaries. Cheating (as the name indicates) breaks both of these. It’s completely different from an open relationship due to one missing and very important component: consent. If your partner is okay with it, have all the (safe) sex you want. But going behind a loyal partner’s back and breaking their trust is of course going to hurt them.
Even if they would have been okay with an open relationship, you not asking beforehand will have them wondering why you hid it from them, if they did something wrong, if they’re not good enough for you, if you ever loved them at all, and what else you might be doing behind their back. Your betrayal will have destroyed their trust in you, and rebuilding the relationship will be an uphill battle if it’s even possible at all.
me and my partner are open about who goes on dates with whom. not for a sense of control, or even trust, just because we like each other and are interested in each other’s lives. And if they completely forget to tell me, not a big deal. she is not my property, I’m just happy to share time with her whenever she wants to be with me.
Just like friends, you don’t tell your friends when you hang out with another friend and what you do with them. you might if it is relevant to the conversation or they might care. but witholding that information isn’t lying by omission.
all those rules you are bringing up, aren’t rules you and your partner decided, those are default social rules enforced by religions and the state and comes from medieval property laws. you should sit with your partner and decide what your relationship should look like. even if neither of you want other partners, having that conversation and critically questioning monogamy would be a healthy conversation.
I agree with you that societal rules are mostly arbitrary bullshit. Communication and consent are the important things. Your relationship should work the way its participants all agree on.
You might want to edit your original post though. You’re probably getting downvoted so heavily because without that context it sounds like you were cheating on an unknowing partner and couldn’t see any problem with it.
I still think that “cheating” is not a big deal. I’ve never cheated in my monogamous relationships, but still, although saying that is just bullshit virtue signaling. I think my opinions should have the same weight even if I was a cheating whore.
I actually appreciate the engagement, I’m not a troll, and don’t try to rage bait. but it resulted in quite a lot of fruitful and interesting conversations.
am I the only one who doesn’t give a fuck about cheating? just be careful with std, test regularly, and have fun.
Can you imagine if your partner said you’re only allowed to eat her cooking, anything else is cheating and you are a horrible person if a coworker offered a snack and you accepted?
What you are describing is an open relationship, so both parties are in a relationship but may seek sexual pleasure elsewhere.
Cheating on the other side has a core component which is the problem, lying.
that’s what I practice and am open about it. I hate those who say they are poly as an excuse after being caught cheating. Not because of the cheating itself, but because they lied to get with someone they knew won’t want that. Therefore the cheated partner had no informed consent. And I’m not sure this is a mainstream view. but I consider informed consent as consent, and therefore no informed consent is rape.
Someone who lies about who they are to have sex is a rapist, just using conman tricks instead of drugs or force. And should be seen by society as such.
I may misunderstood what you mean, but from what I got I disagree.
A person who cheates on their partner may have done psychological harm because of their lie, but no rape happened, since both people engaging in the sexual activity consented to it. Although the partner likely is against it, they are not a party to this activity and therefore their consent or non consent does not matter, at least as it depends on if this action can be considered rape.
deleted by creator
Imagine you have a relationship where one of the rules each person is expected to follow is “Do not have sex with other people.” You both agreed to it. Then you find out the other person broke it. Trust is gone.
This would be different than someone saying “Hey, I know we agreed to this rule, but can we revisit that?” and having a grownup discussion about ENM alternatives, where someone has the opportunity to say that is a dealbreaker for them or declare boundaries that make this OK with them.
Nonmonogamy is cool if everyone is aware and onboard. Fuck cheaters. If you’re going to claim monogamy without actually being monogamous, don’t enter into a relationship on those terms and save everyone the grief/waste of time/psychological damage.
i find such rule to be inherently controlling and coercive. and used to punish abused and neglected partners who find affection elsewhere but can’t leave their relationship due to coersion or fear of homelessness.
Cheating like that should be like “we agreed were both in a diet, but I had a donut that someone brought to the office”, not “you are inherently a horrible human being who deserves to be shamed and hated for seeking human connection”.
If two parties agreed to it under no sense of duress then anyone who betrayed the mutual trust required is making a selfish choice.
If your feelings toward the agreement change you need to have a discussion with the other person.
You can say they’re antiquated for agreeing to it, you can even say that it’s an unrealistic expectation but if it’s consensually agreed to it’s about trust in your partner’s word
As long as monogamy is considered the default and something most people wouldn’t ever consider getting away from, it’s impossible to enter a monogamous relationship absent coercion, because the coercion is societal.
Just like there’s no such thing as voluntary employment under a capitalist system, there’s no such thing as voluntary monogamy in a world dominated by Western, Bronze-age sexual politics.
I would never agree to those terms, so they don’t apply to me.
the problem is that society, states, and religion pushes those standards as if they are the only correct form of relationships. they are arbitrary rules based on ancient forms of control, where women were seen as free household labor and baby factories.
I empathize. Women are absolutely coerced into a role by modern society a habit we are sadly falling back into and that is horrible.
However, to say that no two people wish for a monogamous relationship and that trust ultimately doesn’t matter is a step too far for me. But I understand why someone would feel that way.
I too have seen people trapped in a loveless marriage.
still agree with that. it’s a stupid standard that hurts and shackles people rather than help them
so many loving relationships are torn because an affair, even an emotional one, even if one partner does noting but just develops feelings (100% out of their control), or worse, jealousy. all because monogamy is the standard.
ask elder people who were married through most of their lives and they all have stories of those hardships and how it hurt them.
wouldn’t it be nicer and simpler of cheating was viewed with the same severity as cheating in a diet? rather than being a devastating blow to a relationship and might even lead to severe social punishment?
We are animals we need connections and we aren’t always in control regarding what connections form.
So am I correct in saying under your framework monogamy can never be chosen freely? Or would it be at more accurate to say that if it was chosen it’ll be chosen via action and not agreement?
Humans can’t control what they feel, you cannot agree to not develop feelings or interests on other people, doing so is inherently dishonest, not to your partner but to yourself. and expecting it from your partner is equally unfair.
yes, two people can agree that they expect all their romantic and sexual needs to come from within the couple and promise not to engage romantically or sexually with other people. But if it wasn’t because it is the social norm, that would seem a strange and ridiculous expectation.
Then don’t enter into relationships where that’s a rule, or negotiate alternatives 🤷♂️
I’m not going to say there aren’t circumstances where cheating is understandable, but it’s still a bad thing to do, even in the scenario you describe. Taking the abused and neglected cheating partner’s perspective - what happens when your partner finds out? What happens when someone else finds out and uses this information to blackmail you? Are you really going to be better off than you would’ve been making and executing an escape plan instead?
Cheating almost always outs. Everyone thinks they’re going to be the exception, but by definition few are. If you’re unhappy in your relationship, either get all people in the relationship onboard to start addressing that, or leave. If leaving is going to create problems, prepare in advance to address those problems. IMO you’ll be better off for it v. cheating.
you’ve never been in an abusive relationship and it shows. Ideally no one should ever be in one.
I hope it’s ok if I copy pase a reply I did to someone else, but I’m getting a lot of replies and there’s no point in writing the same thing twice:
I would never agree to those terms, so they don’t apply to me.
the problem is that society, states, and religion pushes those standards as if they are the only correct form of relationships. they are arbitrary rules based on ancient forms of control, where women were seen as free household labor and baby factories.
Don’t mind the copy-paste at all, and I happen to (more or less) agree with the statement as is.
My counterpoint is despite these pressures, it is something you do not have to accept for yourself, but not at the expense of violating the trust of someone you promised you’d be monogamous with. You can be poly, you can swing, you can have mistresses/whatever the masculine equivalent word is, whatever. But you have to be honest in your romantic/sexual dealings, so people can make choices that are appropriate for them with a full understanding. And if you are in a relationship where you can’t be honest, then IMO you need to get out. Nothing good will come from staying, and much worse can come from cheating.
I will admit, however, that I have not been in a abusive relationship in the strictest sense of the term (what’s a little financial abuse and gaslighting between friends - I’d put an emoji here but can’t find one bitter enough. I understand what you mean though), and that does inform/limit my perspective.
We may need to agree to disagree here.
this isn’t a debate, just a conversation. I have no expectation for anyone to change their minds. if I have any goal, is that everyone should question the rules and norms we inherited from our societies. even if you agree with them, it’s important to question.
and monogamy in particular, is one of those norms most people just passively accept without thinking about it. If you agree with it, go ahead, but it’s important to take a moment and question it.
If it is really good cooking and I get lunch packs. (And am still allowed to cook for myself)
Damn, had no idea how unpopular that opinion was. I expect it to be unpopular, just not universally so. still, I will die in this hill. Suggest people to check out “relationship anarchy”. And I will be open about it, so absolutely no one who wants monogamous relationship ends up with me, I wouldn’t want to hurt anyone.
If you’re open about it ahead of time, that’s not cheating. Cheating is when you go behind your partner’s back with someone outside of the established relationship.
Relationships are built on trust and establishing boundaries. Cheating (as the name indicates) breaks both of these. It’s completely different from an open relationship due to one missing and very important component: consent. If your partner is okay with it, have all the (safe) sex you want. But going behind a loyal partner’s back and breaking their trust is of course going to hurt them.
Even if they would have been okay with an open relationship, you not asking beforehand will have them wondering why you hid it from them, if they did something wrong, if they’re not good enough for you, if you ever loved them at all, and what else you might be doing behind their back. Your betrayal will have destroyed their trust in you, and rebuilding the relationship will be an uphill battle if it’s even possible at all.
me and my partner are open about who goes on dates with whom. not for a sense of control, or even trust, just because we like each other and are interested in each other’s lives. And if they completely forget to tell me, not a big deal. she is not my property, I’m just happy to share time with her whenever she wants to be with me.
Just like friends, you don’t tell your friends when you hang out with another friend and what you do with them. you might if it is relevant to the conversation or they might care. but witholding that information isn’t lying by omission.
all those rules you are bringing up, aren’t rules you and your partner decided, those are default social rules enforced by religions and the state and comes from medieval property laws. you should sit with your partner and decide what your relationship should look like. even if neither of you want other partners, having that conversation and critically questioning monogamy would be a healthy conversation.
I agree with you that societal rules are mostly arbitrary bullshit. Communication and consent are the important things. Your relationship should work the way its participants all agree on.
You might want to edit your original post though. You’re probably getting downvoted so heavily because without that context it sounds like you were cheating on an unknowing partner and couldn’t see any problem with it.
I still think that “cheating” is not a big deal. I’ve never cheated in my monogamous relationships, but still, although saying that is just bullshit virtue signaling. I think my opinions should have the same weight even if I was a cheating whore.
I actually appreciate the engagement, I’m not a troll, and don’t try to rage bait. but it resulted in quite a lot of fruitful and interesting conversations.