Its actually hurtful to watch the strong opposition to cirumcision involving girls yet barely any opposition involving boys. It looks like another take on sexism and like one commenter said, it makes it more difficult for trans people.
Circumcision for both genders should only be a medical decision, not a thing you or your parents decide just because.
not a thing you or your parents decide just because.
If you want it done for yourself, I’d say that’s ok. Personal autonomy. But yeah, no one should be making the decision to have it done to you (barring medical necessity).
I agree with your underlying point and don’t wish to detract from it though.
I get where you’re coming from, and I absolutely don’t want to minimise anyone’s pain, but circumcision is not really equivalent to FGM in terms of consequences.
graphic detail
Often FGM includes removal of the clitoris and some of the vulva, leaving girls with a tiny aperture sealed with scar tissue requiring new fully torn flesh to achieve penetration, and girls and women who have been mutilated in this way are usually unable to feel any pleasure during sex, only pain. FGM much more like having the whole glans chopped off and half of the two sides of the wound sewn together than it is like male circumcision.
Feel very free to firmly oppose circumcision, but please don’t suggest that FGM is the same. It really really really isn’t. It’s very very different in what’s removed, very very different in how much ongoing pain it causes, very very different in the effect on sensation, and it’s not equivalent.
It’s like suggesting that it’s not fair that people treat cars running into people so much seriously than bikes running into people, except everyone, whether they ride a bicycle or a car, can see how incorrect that is, whereas a vast number of prior have no idea how brutal FGM is, which is how you end up with people claiming circumcision is just as bad. I mean, don’t get me wrong. It’s bad. But it’s in a whole different level and world of consequences for the girl than for the boy.
I agree but you’re missing the point. It’s (primarily) not about the harm it does, it’s about consent not having been given. Newborns cannot consent to such things. They cannot make such a decision. Parents do not have the right to make such a decision, nor does anyone except the person themself.
I don’t think you read behind my graphic detail spoiler, or you just claimed the equivalent of kissing you without your consent was just as bad as raping you, because they key point is consent. Incorrect. It is you who have missed the point. Kissing people without consent is not in any sense ok, but also trying to make out that my great aunt is a rapist because I never wanted the kisses trivialises rape and is not ok.
For what I’m saying how bad the thing is doesn’t matter, I do agree that FGM does more harm but the lack of consent is the real problem (eliminating the consent problem eliminates the entire problem, eliminating the harm problem does not solve the consent problem). I am not saying that FGM and circumcision are equally bad I am just saying that the root of the problem is the same in both cases.
Millions of newborns are forced into various religions without their consent. Basing your argument off of consent only is kinda a wash argument unless your willing to fight all the other things parents do to their children without their consent.
Yeah, men aren’t allowed to talk about it. If we do, we’re questioning doctors, so we look stupid, and we’re questioning women, who all (in my experience) say they aesthetically prefer it, so we look sexist. We’re never going to win with that opposition. That’s why it’s not even a topic of discussion. It’s been decided for us, and we didn’t get a vote.
That why they do it to us as babies, so we can’t fight it. If they waited, we’d NEVER do it.
If we do, we’re questioning doctors, so we look stupid
Circumcision being medical is almost entirely an excuse by religious people. Cases where it is needed are rare (although additionally there are cases where it is not needed but is one of the possible solutions) and most of these cases are later in life where the person can provide informed consent.
and we’re questioning women, who all (in my experience) say they aesthetically prefer it, so we look sexist
What the fuck? How is that sexist? Just because Amerikkkan women who are used to it prefer it because it’s what they see as normal (In saner countries where infant genital mutilation is rarer women tend to prefer uncut because it’s what’s normal there) doesn’t mean that it should be done. Your body your choice. That’s equivalent to saying that women refusing to try to try to sexually appeal to men as much as possible is misandry.
Yeah but it’s to boys so who cares? /s
Its actually hurtful to watch the strong opposition to cirumcision involving girls yet barely any opposition involving boys. It looks like another take on sexism and like one commenter said, it makes it more difficult for trans people.
Circumcision for both genders should only be a medical decision, not a thing you or your parents decide just because.
If you want it done for yourself, I’d say that’s ok. Personal autonomy. But yeah, no one should be making the decision to have it done to you (barring medical necessity).
I agree with your underlying point and don’t wish to detract from it though.
I get where you’re coming from, and I absolutely don’t want to minimise anyone’s pain, but circumcision is not really equivalent to FGM in terms of consequences.
graphic detail
Often FGM includes removal of the clitoris and some of the vulva, leaving girls with a tiny aperture sealed with scar tissue requiring new fully torn flesh to achieve penetration, and girls and women who have been mutilated in this way are usually unable to feel any pleasure during sex, only pain. FGM much more like having the whole glans chopped off and half of the two sides of the wound sewn together than it is like male circumcision.
Feel very free to firmly oppose circumcision, but please don’t suggest that FGM is the same. It really really really isn’t. It’s very very different in what’s removed, very very different in how much ongoing pain it causes, very very different in the effect on sensation, and it’s not equivalent.
It’s like suggesting that it’s not fair that people treat cars running into people so much seriously than bikes running into people, except everyone, whether they ride a bicycle or a car, can see how incorrect that is, whereas a vast number of prior have no idea how brutal FGM is, which is how you end up with people claiming circumcision is just as bad. I mean, don’t get me wrong. It’s bad. But it’s in a whole different level and world of consequences for the girl than for the boy.
I agree but you’re missing the point. It’s (primarily) not about the harm it does, it’s about consent not having been given. Newborns cannot consent to such things. They cannot make such a decision. Parents do not have the right to make such a decision, nor does anyone except the person themself.
I don’t think you read behind my graphic detail spoiler, or you just claimed the equivalent of kissing you without your consent was just as bad as raping you, because they key point is consent. Incorrect. It is you who have missed the point. Kissing people without consent is not in any sense ok, but also trying to make out that my great aunt is a rapist because I never wanted the kisses trivialises rape and is not ok.
For what I’m saying how bad the thing is doesn’t matter, I do agree that FGM does more harm but the lack of consent is the real problem (eliminating the consent problem eliminates the entire problem, eliminating the harm problem does not solve the consent problem). I am not saying that FGM and circumcision are equally bad I am just saying that the root of the problem is the same in both cases.
Millions of newborns are forced into various religions without their consent. Basing your argument off of consent only is kinda a wash argument unless your willing to fight all the other things parents do to their children without their consent.
I am.
Yeah, men aren’t allowed to talk about it. If we do, we’re questioning doctors, so we look stupid, and we’re questioning women, who all (in my experience) say they aesthetically prefer it, so we look sexist. We’re never going to win with that opposition. That’s why it’s not even a topic of discussion. It’s been decided for us, and we didn’t get a vote.
That why they do it to us as babies, so we can’t fight it. If they waited, we’d NEVER do it.
Circumcision being medical is almost entirely an excuse by religious people. Cases where it is needed are rare (although additionally there are cases where it is not needed but is one of the possible solutions) and most of these cases are later in life where the person can provide informed consent.
What the fuck? How is that sexist? Just because Amerikkkan women who are used to it prefer it because it’s what they see as normal (In saner countries where infant genital mutilation is rarer women tend to prefer uncut because it’s what’s normal there) doesn’t mean that it should be done. Your body your choice. That’s equivalent to saying that women refusing to try to try to sexually appeal to men as much as possible is misandry.